Comments on: The spreadsheet disadvantage http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/ Simon Murphy on professional spreadsheet development stuff Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:51:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Chris Whitfield http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-5799 Chris Whitfield Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:18:55 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-5799 I'm an old lag, I confess it, and even worse, a computer techie by training not an accountant. I can just about accept the rationale for multipage workbooks and "canned" facilities like optimisation, pivot tables and the like as they, and the ready availability of functions to perform all sorts of tricky numerical computations, can save vast amounts of work and time. The problem is that integrating a fairly low-level programming language (Basic) is simply an invitation to use the combination for things to which it is totally unsuited and extremely error prone. All this was gone through years ago with notably assembly code and Fortran and the hard lessons learned. It does not follow simply because it is easy to prototype an application quickly with a tool like Excel that it is suitable for the development of error-free production code. I’m an old lag, I confess it, and even worse, a computer techie by training not an accountant. I can just about accept the rationale for multipage workbooks and “canned” facilities like optimisation, pivot tables and the like as they, and the ready availability of functions to perform all sorts of tricky numerical computations, can save vast amounts of work and time.
The problem is that integrating a fairly low-level programming language (Basic) is simply an invitation to use the combination for things to which it is totally unsuited and extremely error prone.
All this was gone through years ago with notably assembly code and Fortran and the hard lessons learned. It does not follow simply because it is easy to prototype an application quickly with a tool like Excel that it is suitable for the development of error-free production code.

]]> By: Ross http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-431 Ross Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:57:22 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-431 Intresting stuff. Not sure a aggree with all of it! ;-) I'll only say one thing, I wrote a big dictor app - a modeling tool - a while back, it was "fun" but i dont think i would really undertake it agian. getting the UI to function (i used workbook sheets as the UI) was a pain, and not really good enough - maybe UF might have been better? But i think i'd look to do this in .Net or VB6 now, probally .Net to be fair. Intresting stuff. Not sure a aggree with all of it! ;-)

I’ll only say one thing, I wrote a big dictor app - a modeling tool - a while back, it was “fun” but i dont think i would really undertake it agian. getting the UI to function (i used workbook sheets as the UI) was a pain, and not really good enough - maybe UF might have been better? But i think i’d look to do this in .Net or VB6 now, probally .Net to be fair.

]]> By: Harlan Grove http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-424 Harlan Grove Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:57:05 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-424 Excel services? So you can treat multimegabyte spreadsheets as black boxes rather than write efficient code to do the same thing? Gosh, that get's my juices flowing! Excel is screwy enough as a mixture of UI and functional programming language, but mixing the two at least provides immediate gratification in terms of recalculation upon entry. Take away the UI, and you're left with the world's least efficient functional programming language. The only justification I've heard is that, "well, there's all these spreadsheets out there already." Fine. Use *EXISTING* spreadsheets with Excel services. Any developer suggesting using Excel services with *NEW* spreadsheet models should be fired on the spot. Excel services? So you can treat multimegabyte spreadsheets as black boxes rather than write efficient code to do the same thing? Gosh, that get’s my juices flowing!

Excel is screwy enough as a mixture of UI and functional programming language, but mixing the two at least provides immediate gratification in terms of recalculation upon entry. Take away the UI, and you’re left with the world’s least efficient functional programming language. The only justification I’ve heard is that, “well, there’s all these spreadsheets out there already.” Fine. Use *EXISTING* spreadsheets with Excel services. Any developer suggesting using Excel services with *NEW* spreadsheet models should be fired on the spot.

]]> By: Simon http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-421 Simon Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:24:33 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-421 Jim has an excellent explanation on MVC here: http://moverve.com/blog/2007/03/separation-of-data-and-view/ I should have tried harder, but now I dont have to - Thanks Jim! Cheers Simon Jim has an excellent explanation on MVC here:
http://moverve.com/blog/2007/03/separation-of-data-and-view/
I should have tried harder, but now I dont have to - Thanks Jim!
Cheers
Simon

]]> By: simon http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-408 simon Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:14:38 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-408 Office Web Components were very good, ruined by licencing I'd say. (they were really OIC - Office Intranet C..) There is no 2007 version so they are a bit of a dead end now I think. (as you said Dennis) Re VSTO - I personally like working with this stuff, but really who are the customers? Most Office devs prefer the simplicity of VBA, most VS devs only want to do web apps. Where is the demand for .net/Office solutions going to come from? There seems to be strong demand for .net grid controls, judging by the variety available. I don't know of any corporate dev depts that would touch Excel. Its end user driven all the way in my experience. Maybe MS have seen something I've missed. Maybe Excel services will get those corp devs interested? Office Web Components were very good, ruined by licencing I’d say. (they were really OIC - Office Intranet C..) There is no 2007 version so they are a bit of a dead end now I think. (as you said Dennis)

Re VSTO - I personally like working with this stuff, but really who are the customers? Most Office devs prefer the simplicity of VBA, most VS devs only want to do web apps. Where is the demand for .net/Office solutions going to come from? There seems to be strong demand for .net grid controls, judging by the variety available.

I don’t know of any corporate dev depts that would touch Excel. Its end user driven all the way in my experience. Maybe MS have seen something I’ve missed.
Maybe Excel services will get those corp devs interested?

]]> By: Harlan Grove http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-404 Harlan Grove Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:16:48 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-404 Answers to questions may become obvious, but the questions don't become obsolete. Looks like there's an assumption that those corporate development departments were already doing most of their development work in Excel. Not where I work. Answers to questions may become obvious, but the questions don’t become obsolete. Looks like there’s an assumption that those corporate development departments were already doing most of their development work in Excel. Not where I work.

]]> By: Dennis Wallentin http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-393 Dennis Wallentin Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:08:20 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-393 Simon, Harlan et al, >>is it really appropriate for spreadsheets? When large corporates port themselves to .NET and their developing department(s) are requested to use .NET then the question is quite obsolete. Marcus, OWC is a really underestimated package but keep in mind that MSFT made it totally wrong when they released the first version (9.0) with their license setup. Except for that MSFT has never pushed for the OWC package and now they don't develop it further. Kind regards, Dennis Simon, Harlan et al,

>>is it really appropriate for spreadsheets?

When large corporates port themselves to .NET and their developing department(s) are requested to use .NET then the question is quite obsolete.

Marcus,
OWC is a really underestimated package but keep in mind that MSFT made it totally wrong when they released the first version (9.0) with their license setup. Except for that MSFT has never pushed for the OWC package and now they don’t develop it further.

Kind regards,
Dennis

]]> By: Simon http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-392 Simon Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:25:58 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-392 Marcus - Mickey Mouse is spot on, that is exactly the attitude. On the plus side though I think that is why sys admins don't bother locking down VBA. I think Excel is one of the biggest (most properties/methods) COM components around? Eek-a-cell - I don't like any long formulas, but ones that dont do anything would be even more unwelcome. Marcus - Mickey Mouse is spot on, that is exactly the attitude. On the plus side though I think that is why sys admins don’t bother locking down VBA.
I think Excel is one of the biggest (most properties/methods) COM components around?
Eek-a-cell - I don’t like any long formulas, but ones that dont do anything would be even more unwelcome.

]]> By: EEK-A-CELL http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-390 EEK-A-CELL Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:10:00 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-390 Two things piss me off 1. Authors that say; Only the most trivial spreadsheets don’t use arrays. 2. Really really really looooooong conditional formulas that really don’t do much! And waste your time learning in then first place. Two things piss me off

1. Authors that say; Only the most trivial spreadsheets don’t use arrays.
2. Really really really looooooong conditional formulas that really don’t do much! And waste your time learning in then first place.

]]> By: Marcus http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-386 Marcus Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:41:30 +0000 http://smurfonspreadsheets.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/the-spreadsheet-disadvantage/#comment-386 Hi Simon, "he'd rather write from scratch" I think that some of this comes from two sources: 1. Perception: MSO dev is Mickey Mouse and couldn't do what I need; and 2. Ignorance: You mean I could have done this with the OWC Grid control? The OWC (OFfice Web Components) are very under-rated. Having 'OFfice' in the name seems to devalue them in some peoples' eyes. "client as rich as Excel" I've had 'real' developers ask if I've ever worked with COM without realising that Excel is one big COM object with a rich hierarchy of objects, properties and methods as you're going to get. Hi Simon,

“he’d rather write from scratch”
I think that some of this comes from two sources:

1. Perception: MSO dev is Mickey Mouse and couldn’t do what I need; and

2. Ignorance: You mean I could have done this with the OWC Grid control?

The OWC (OFfice Web Components) are very under-rated. Having ‘OFfice’ in the name seems to devalue them in some peoples’ eyes.

“client as rich as Excel”
I’ve had ‘real’ developers ask if I’ve ever worked with COM without realising that Excel is one big COM object with a rich hierarchy of objects, properties and methods as you’re going to get.

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